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Cato

Unlockable Buildings Requirements

24 posts in this topic

There is now so many new buildings in CC that it's easy to find something, think 'wow I definitely want that', build it, only to find that it's no use to you currently as you cannot supply it correctly. A typical scenario for me is:

- Identify that I need 'X' resource, in this case Building Supplies.

- Invest precious resources to create the 'Building Supplier'

- Realise you need joists, bricks, copper etc for production.

- Shed a colonial tear or two.

----

So my idea would be to make buildings locked/unbuildable until prerequisites exist. As the vanilla game has no unlockable buildings, this suggestion is likely impossible to do the traditional 'tech tree' way so perhaps just change some of the resource materials required for build to include it's production chain? 

E.g. Building Supplier changes from 60 Wood + 60 Lumber to instead be:  60 Lumber + 10 Bricks + 2 Joists + 5 Glass

This stops the player from building the production building which they do not have the resources to supply.

Other examples: Chandlery 45 Wood + 10 Tallow + 10 Beeswax, Salting House 45 Wood + 20 Salt

 

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Unfortunately there is no way to do this, as this is a part of the code that we don't have access to. 

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You can only have a maximum of 3 build resource requirements.

Building supplies was the unhappy workaround to that. We would love to do it your way, but it would require editing of the game by luke to make it work right.

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It's very true that you can get stuck with a building that you can't yet supply. I guess knowing which buildings you are ready for and which ones you aren't is a trial and error learning process. But you can always save your game before you build something, or check out the wiki to see what you need to make the products you want to make. Not ideal solutions perhaps, but that's about all we have.

 

Apart from that I quite like the building supplies/homewares system. It's a clever workaround to one of the many limitations built into the game. Modding has taken Banished well beyond what the creator ever imagined it would be.

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The Spreadsheets and the Wiki give the "recipes" for buildings/products. We're working on adding the 1.7 buildings.

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I, for one, am very happy that the "unlock" concept was not applied to the game. It's the primary reason that I play Banished in preference to other city building games.

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Thank you for clarifying :D

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the only "lock" concept we can play with is about nomads (get nomads or not before to get building requirements like townhall market TP)
but we cannot as this feature to a building (not get allowed to build something before we get another building - that we cannot do)

Edited by Ketchup

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i think CATO has a point,if u dont look at it as a "lock" but as a step in the chains. say a building materials needs bricks,glass etc to produce goods ,then set the building requirements to include the bricks and lumber. then you can't build the building without having the items the building uses. simialar idea CC does with the brick furnace and glass blower. you need clay for 1 and sand for the other so those were also added to the build requirements. it isn't full proof but does help. i have several mills and bakeries and they use different grains. i had sorghum early in a game,so made a mill,but built the wrong 1. i even tried to make my own chart but that got monotonous and if u add a mod it changes. 1 of the problems i had is the modders arent uniform. some storage buildings list the capacity not all. and which way should i make the list: by building material requirements?  or by the size??? or by the outputs?? with over 70 mods it was too long a list,lol.

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Ah yeah, I think I understand better now what @Cato was thinking about. It appears that it can be done in the way you mentioned @stiles because as you mentioned, the brick maker requires clay for making bricks but it also needs clay for the building process before it can be constructed. However, that means another layer of complexity for the modders to include and while it may not be difficult, it might not be something every modder wants to do. This means there will be mods that do include the idea and mods that don't so the problem will never fully go away.

It also starts to mess with people's ideas of how a building should work, for example, should a dairy need milk before it can be built? It makes sense based on the idea we're discussing but it's obviously a bit silly for a building to need something like that as a requirement for it to be constructed.

I do understand that it's disappointing to construct a particular building and then find out you don't have the resources to make anything but I also think that some players will argue that it's not such a big deal for them. They either demolish the building or leave it in place until they have the resources (and some players do like to do this so that they can pre-plan their towns) or they just don't construct the building until they have the resources available for it to produce goods.

I'm not saying the idea is bad or that it cannot be done (I actually kind of like it), but I am saying that it needs to be understood that some modders might not want to worry about all of that because as I said earlier, it's kind of silly for example, to need honey as a pre-requisite for building an apiary or flour as a pre-requisite for building a bakery but for those particular production buildings, what else could you use to control when it could be built? It's a lot to worry about in some cases because I feel some people won't see that it's worth trying to explain why, for example, a bakery needs flour before you're allowed to build it.

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definetely ,it wont solve everything. i agree we don't want all modders copying each other. and i wouldn't expect any to remake so many mods to fit a script.  i like using REDS claypit and brickmaker since you can make it earlier in game without the extra steps.plus i like his style for the claypit.it s nice to have multiple options. it is frustrating trying to figure out where your builder is and why he didn't finisha building. only to realize he can't build it.or you can't use it after it's built. i do wish we had some uniformity thou/ like when you scroll over storages they would tell you the capacity.and maybe the mills could show what grains it takes. but that also has a fail, the lines would be too long when you figure the new bakeries,and other processors.

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Yes that would be great addition to the game (your last couple of suggestions). Would be incredibly helpful sometimes to know what capacity some of the alternate storage buildings have because sometimes the mod maker even forgets to put that info in the building description!

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5 hours ago, stiles said:

when you scroll over storages they would tell you the capacity

Yep, I wanted this for a long time, a short "Cap: 5000" would do...

Generally, I'm a friend of "speaking" mouse-over hints to give more info about an item...

 

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Reading all this I get the feeling that players want mod creators to do all the thinking, in addition to guessing what mods you are using. Many try to be compatible, but some players insist on using some mods that aren't made to work together, or complain about the things when they don't work. The best we can do is keep our content consistent, and pump out additions to help you customize you experience. The idea of having the required goods for production as a building requirement is simply foolish, and could be extremely restrictive on buildings like the clothier. We have produced the required documentation as best we can, (a complex job requiring a lot of time), much more than what Luke did with the mod kit. If you find making your own tools tedious, what about us, and then we should research the work of others so you don't have to! Or should we impose our ideas on others as a standard? Much of this issue consists of player laziness, and a reluctance to read, and memorize what the mods they use do. If you make a mistake its on you, not on the mod designer, or the mod's content. If the mods are too complex the you can play vanilla. :face48:

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ouch,we wern't complaining. we actually was answering a question. we didn't mean to disrespect modders at all. we appreciated the work they have done. as we stated ourseves,there isn't a perfect fix to it. i apologize if any of my posts sounded as a complaint.

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While I generally agree with what @Denis de la Rive has said the tone did come across as a tad harsh! :D However don't take that as me criticizing what he said, I still agree with his points.

It can be seen over a wide range of games that players have often come to expect and even demand, modders (who it must be remembered are not actually employed to make mods, they do it in their free time) to cater specifically to them even to the point of remaking mods because a player didn't want a certain feature. The flip side is that if you do have many mods installed, something as simple as adding mouse-over tips/hints can make a massive positive difference to your play experience.

I thoroughly disagree with the idea of having buildings unable to be constructed until certain "unlock" conditions have been met, it's a feature I strongly dislike in many other city building type games - I understand why it is done for some of them and it even makes sense for some of them (e.g. you can't build skyscrapers until you reach x population level) but I still dislike it as a game mechanic. I am very glad it is not in Banished. In regards to Banished, the production chains of something like CC very much change the gameplay and add a layer of complexity that some may dislike plus it does cause a few issues when working with other mods. However they can also be seen as something of an "unlock" feature, sure you can still construct the building but it won't produce anything until the required resources are also being produced.

But I have come to see that player perception plays as much a part as player likes/dislikes, wants/needs for any game and sometimes it plays a much bigger part. I understand that it's disappointing to make a building then find that it won't produce anything but is it really a big problem? From my perspective it's just a case of then making the other buildings needed to complete the resource supply or simply demolishing the building. But that's just me, your mileage may vary.

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Hey, it was not aimed at anyone in particular, just felt a bit of tough love was needed. I have seen so many game play related request it sometimes it gets a bit irritating. I have never hidden my dark side, and have sometimes been brutally honest, but only because this game is great and we try to make it better. I read a post the other day where "F" variants versions of our buildings was described as redundant. Like you said our work on Banished is not a job, so we need to spend time wisely, a few minor looking things, can actually take a lot of work, like writing the wiki descriptions, or simply designing functions, and then testing them. Then you add the graphics and coding. So many choices, so few man hours.

Simply changing the name of a resource has to be done in each file one by one. It takes time, thats what I did when we added lumber, change every building file, not just calculate the numbers, and you have to go slow so as not to make any mistakes. A missing coma can break the whole file. The same can be said of popup indications, numbers means that even a small change would require redoing each entry. You have to ask what is more important, cosmetic changes or adding more interesting functions and buildings. We chose to add rather than edit, and most would prefer this to the same better explained, (in game) version of CC 1.62. 

We are considering what the next version will look like and we may do a balancing and reorganizing of CC since it has grown like an onion, version by version, and could use some structural fixes. 

Yes I was a bit harsh, but honest and felt the love for the game in your words, I took the time to read your posts and answer. We have never rejected comments, and if we could we would do many more things that have been suggested by our followers.

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And in all serious, I do believe that sometimes we players need a reminder that mods are a privilege and not a right.

We are really lucky these days, there are many good mod makers (and I'm not just talking about Banished) producing a large range of mods so our ability to change games to suit us is "luxurious" compared to when I first started gaming on the computer. I like Banished a lot but I wouldn't play it in its vanilla form anymore, I want these mods, they make a good game better than some of the big name releases from major companies.

I love the S.T.A.L.K.E.R. series of games, I've played the first release once or twice a year since it was released in 2006. Most of those plays were with modded versions. The whole concept of the Zone from S.T.A.L.K.E.R. is something that intrigues me to no end and I intend to continue exploring it in future mods. So I have spent nearly a decade replaying the same game, I know the storyline and the quests without reading the ingame text but I keep going back to play it because the mod scene has allowed me to continue exploring it in various forms. I'd still play the game every now and then but the various mods have made it so appealing that I have played new sessions at least once a year for the last 10 years.

That's the power of mods.

And so I'll say it again, mod makers are not normally paid for their work and a lot of their work is motivated by a desire to see a particular game expand or simply out of love for that game. We players should show some understanding of that. Even if we don't shower mod makers with gratitude and appreciation of their work, we should at least show some understanding of the time & trouble it takes to make a mod. In all the excitement of announcements of new mods and the enjoyment of playing a modded game we players sometimes lose sight of that.

Edited by KevinTheCynic
spelling correction
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Well this thread escalated.

On 28/01/2017 at 4:46 PM, Denis de la Rive said:

Reading all this I get the feeling that players want mod creators to do all the thinking... The idea of having the required goods for production as a building requirement is simply foolish, and could be extremely restrictive on buildings like the clothier.  If you make a mistake its on you, not on the mod designer, or the mod's content. If the mods are too complex the you can play vanilla. :face48: 

Maybe don't have a sub-forum labelled 'Suggestions & Ideas' if it's not acceptable for people to chat and explore new concepts which go against the current vision for the mod. :(

As Stile said, 'Ouch'. We were not complaining, we meant no disrespect. It's fascinating to hear why X or Y will not work.

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On 1/27/2017 at 6:47 PM, KevinTheCynic said:

I do understand that it's disappointing to construct a particular building and then find out you don't have the resources to make anything but I also think that some players will argue that it's not such a big deal for them. They either demolish the building or leave it in place until they have the resources ....

I find it kinda fun, now you have several supply chains that have to be developed just to get the original supply chain going.

On 1/28/2017 at 9:00 PM, KevinTheCynic said:

I thoroughly disagree with the idea of having buildings unable to be constructed until certain "unlock" conditions have been met, it's a feature I strongly dislike

I agree with you. In my current and last game, I mentally "locked" myself from building a trading post until I reach 300 people -- adds a little complexity and changes the strategy.   

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